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xx Re: Wake up call from Reena Patel
« Reply #15 on: Jul 30th, 2004, 8:34pm »

So please be very careful these days and who you date.
As for the girl that was 19 she didn't mind about the age thing. She just wanted to date and didn't care about what anyone had to say or thought of that. As for my opinion on this guy, I think he shouldn't date people young as that age range or older than him!!! That's my view. You would think a person with good education would have some sense and values. This guy was the few that didn't have sense and values. Many of his friends felt the same way. Again, I was very speechless by hearing this guy's dating lifestyle from his close friends.

So the moral of the story, you may come across an older man that might prey on you. Be very careful!!
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xx Re: Wake up call from Reena Patel
« Reply #16 on: Jul 30th, 2004, 9:48pm »

We are not saying all men or males are bad. No they are many males that we look up to and care. There are many sincere, respectful, humble, and loving, and other good characteristics. We need more people to emulate those characteristics. I have noticed that the attitude of some Desi males and also females are a concern. this is for the males.

The way I see some growing number of males at formals dress in dual-rags, jeans, tee like mecca, roccawear, and boots or desinger sneakers. I know that's the style but wear that at appropriate places. Suits are hip and hot too! What happened to suits and nice dress attire? I also know slang is a huge thing and I talk in slang once in a while with my close people. I know the culture is influencing all that, but please be respectful in words and actions. All these people rappers and artists Do POINT OUT THAT THEY DO IT FOR THE GREEN. THEY COULD CARE LESS IF YOU GO TO JAIL OR SOMETHING. PLEASE IF YOU FOLLOW WHAT MEDIA CREATED PLEASE DO YOURSELF A FAVOR UNDERSTAND THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN RIGHT AND WRONG. TRY TO PRESENT YOURSELF IN A GOOD WAY. YOU HAVE THAT IN YOU, I KNOW SO SHOW THAT QUALITY grin
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Neha
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xx Re: Wake up call from Reena Patel
« Reply #17 on: Jul 30th, 2004, 10:12pm »

the entire web site is a wake up call for everyone.
most stuff come into play with desi youth, but all things are equally very important
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pathik
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xx Message from Pathik
« Reply #18 on: Jul 31st, 2004, 01:46am »

props to all who have spoken out.... holding back may not hurt anyone (keywords: may not), but it's definately not helping anyone.

I go to Univ of IL in and i heard some stories about SASA in texas this year too that were disturbing. It disgusts me how us desi guys are represented in colleges across the nation. It bothers me that everything discussed here is an actual reality, but i have accepted that it is real. That doesnt mean i have accepted that for myself... that will NEVER happen.

What every single person has to realize is that no matter what every other desi guy is doing, it is still up to the individual to decide what to do! It seems as though people have forgotten (or were never shown) the joys of a basketball game, late-nite drive (to taco bell ha), movie, sitting w/ friends and chatting, or even simply dancing. Now it just seems as though the weekend comes and it has be be spent at a bar or club getting drunk and hitting on girls.....


...this isnt an attack on the sisters, i just wanna get this out and see how everyone feels....

is it fair to say that ok im going to drink, and im going to dress anyway i want (even though my mother may not approve), and im going to go to the clubs no matter what (even though i get "attacked" by guys) because that's what i want to do? Is it fair to tell a guy that "im not an object" and then wear clothes that makes it look like u are putting your body on display? does it make sense to put urself in a vulnerable situation (possibly by havin too much to drink and not having complete control.... o simply by putting urself by drunk guys that u know have no respect for u or ur body)?



i want to know WHY .... thas all im after WHY does no one see the value of our Indian culture anymore?

i dont think i know anyone specifically here...and you dont know me... so what i said may not mean much... but i truely believe that anyone who reads this and asks these questions (or these kinds of questions) to your best friends at school...ppl ur always around then the answers and discussion that will come from that will have meaning... these message boards are just places to share ideas... it's up to us to do more w/ the ideas we get

thanks to Vijay Uncle who's made this kinda thing available... to Reena for getting angry and letting us share in your anger...and everyone else who's spoken out

jsk! peace!
« Last Edit: Jul 31st, 2004, 07:44am by Vijay Mehta » User IP Logged

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xx Reflection is better than being anger!
« Reply #19 on: Jul 31st, 2004, 07:53am »


Dear Pathik,

Thank you. Most important thing we need to do is not to play a blame game. By trashing guys or gals or SASA or Delta or OCP we will have a hot discussion but no change at the end.

However, if we look at this issue in a reflective manner and question everything including our own behavior we may actually make a difference.

Our Desi culture is sinking like Titanic and all we see is the orchestra playing music!

This is a wake up call to all because even those who enjoy the party scene may not have thought the long term impact on us as a community.

I would bet that if a white girl was dressed in provocative manner and dancing in an inviting fashion, the same Desi guy, even if he had more alcohol in his system, would have understood the meaning of "No" and not try to grab her or pull the skirt down. The question is, why?

How do you give yourself a permission to grab any girl, when she refused to dance with you?

Thank you everyone for participation. Please forward this link to all your thinking friends.

Vijay Uncle
« Last Edit: Jul 31st, 2004, 08:32am by Vijay Mehta » User IP Logged

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xx Message from Ammundeep Tagore
« Reply #20 on: Jul 31st, 2004, 11:19am »


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Everyone has had some great responses; I hope that I
may be able to add to the conversation.

First off I strongly agree with ms patel in that this
type of behavior is inexcusable. But as Pathik noted
out these places are not very safe and you are putting
yourself at risk. As my uncle used to say, nothing
good can happen after 11pm. Iím not here to blame,
but realize that where guys are drinking and the
mating ritual is going on, there can be risks
involved.

There has to be a movement towards group trips to
these events with men and women (not men who will push
women when they are harassed or laugh at them when
they are touched inappropriately), but people who are
willing to stand up and step in if you are being
mistreated. Iím not saying that women need a
bodyguard, but in situations where people are drinking
and guards can be down late at night, it is essential
that proper support is available immediately.

The next step is accountability. Dr. Mehta brought up
a great topic. Why would a desi guy approach an
Indian girl like this, but not a white chick? This is
because the white chick would cause a scene and be
very active in bringing the culprit to attention.
Indian women are strong-minded but when it comes to
the club scene they are very passive. I can
understand that it is not the most dignified thing to
bring charges upon someone because it might bring
light to where one socializesÖ but if you can, on your
own, dress up and go to a club and drink and do all
that, then you should be aware of the risks involved
and take appropriate actions if needed. If anything,
if someone treats you inappropriately, ask em what
their name is and then ask them if they would like it
you pressed charges against them for harassment.

I understand, Iíve read women have been cornered by
men, but that is why it is essential that you attend
these events with a group of people and people who
will have a watchful eye on you. Realizing the risk
involved, if you still decide to go, then go with a
responsible group. My personal thoughts on the club
scene is they are a waste of time and are phase
everyone goes through.. Clubs are just breeding
grounds for drinking, dancing, and hooking upÖ I agree
with Pathik in whatever happened to the good ol
days!!!!!

Ammun
ammundeep@yahoo.com
« Last Edit: Jul 31st, 2004, 11:22am by Vijay Mehta » User IP Logged

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xx Reena's Message
« Reply #21 on: Jul 31st, 2004, 11:45am »

7/30/2004 5.57 PM

Wow... This is something that really needed to be discussed. Thanks Vijay
Uncle! I emailed that guy back from Emory and I sent an e-mail to India Abroad
in response to the post on your website. Vie even had a few girls that Iím
friends with tell me their stories after reading this article. One of my
friends even told me this sort of thing happened to her at a Janamasthmi
celebration Garba. Iím glad we are speaking up. Itís getting a lot of other
people to find their inner voice as well.

Just between you and me, I told my dad that I posted this up. He is happy that
I did it. My parents knew that all of this happened to me and they still trust
me to go out because they realize that it isnít my fault and they try and teach
me to be more careful. As my mom loves to say... "learn karta siikh."

Love
Reena
« Last Edit: Aug 2nd, 2004, 4:08pm by Vijay Mehta » User IP Logged

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xx Re: Wake up call from Reena Patel
« Reply #22 on: Jul 31st, 2004, 11:46am »

Dear Reena

There has been no negative comments as such. Only thing few guys have mentioned, and I agree, that we also need to change the culture in our girls.

"When you know what goes on at such places, what prompts you to go there and stay there?" The answer is in deep dilemma for our females, they want to have fun but not the harassment. Can we provide alternative where one can have fun without the humiliation?

Some of this may have to do with the fact that until they go to college most of them have to suppress all your desire or do it underground. Once in college with no one to watch over them it is "Desi's gone wild party." I have known so many young Desi females who behave like their life is not complete unless they have a guy! This leads to the behavior by those females that contributes to the club scene.

I would save the conversation and send it to you to read between the lines. So far this is not a gender war but everyone is approaching in a reflective manner.
I think this may be the most empowering thing you did in your life.

Vijay Uncle
« Last Edit: Aug 1st, 2004, 08:35am by Vijay Mehta » User IP Logged

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xx Reena writes
« Reply #23 on: Jul 31st, 2004, 11:56am »




Hey Vijay Uncle

For sure, I think our culture needs to change as well. I canít claim that I donít
drink because I have in the past, and I wanted to be honest. And I can't claim
that I donít love going out because I love getting together with a group of
girls and going out for a night of dancing. I actually had decided after the
last run-in that I had with this sort of problem, and I would no longer be
going out in Houston because I didn't feel safe. Also, I have no intention of
going to a SASA party again. Iím no longer drinking. I can change myself Vijay
uncle, but this letter was written for all my girlfriends. They arenít all going
to change and itís really difficult to place the idea of females changing in
order to stop this sort of thing from happening. It makes it seem to a girl
that maybe itís her fault that it happens to her and that she needs to change to
get it to go away. I would definitely like to know how we could present female
change in a way that doesnít make a girl feel like itís her fault. I would be
the first person to tell someone that overdrinking isnít going to do anything
but compromise her judgment, but you and I know that isnít going to generate
any change. I think maybe if we came up with changes for both guys and girls.
I donít think that the way guys talk (ghetto and whatnot) or the music they like
is really a concern. I think that we should say something about how they
should learn how to ask a girl. I think that they should take no for an
answer, and I think they shouldnít go out with the intention of buying a girl
drinks and getting some action. I think that girls should reconsider the way
they come across to guys. I think they should make their intentions clear. I
think they should go out in large numbers with girls and guys that are going to
help them out if they get into any trouble. I think that girls should not be
afraid to speak up when things happen to them. My dad gave me his thoughts...
maybe guys are doing it so often because no Indian girl ever says anything so
they get away with it.
My relationship with my parents is out of this world Vijay Uncle. They know
where Iím going, what Iím doing, what Iím wearing etc., and they have no problem
with it. I dress in a way that maybe I couldnít go to a family party with my
mom in, but she doesnít mind me wearing those clothes out.


Again, I was just keeping 99% of my friends in mind who canít tell their parents any of this. I
did this for my 13 year old friend who was raped by a family friend at her grandmotherís house. I did this for my 20 year old friend who was taken home after a drunken night. I did this for my 19 year old friend who was beaten by her boyfriend. Iím doing this for my 17 year old friend who was almost raped at Garba on Janamasthmi during a celebration that I was at. It happens to cultured girls as well. I did this for my girls. They are all different. We really need to sit down and think about how to solve these problems. The answer is not so easy.


Love,
Reena
« Last Edit: Aug 2nd, 2004, 4:08pm by Vijay Mehta » User IP Logged

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xx Re: Wake up call from Reena Patel
« Reply #24 on: Jul 31st, 2004, 12:47pm »

i agree with pathik. what happened to good old dayshuh

i was born and raised here in the states and i remember growing up, we were taught to respect everyone and treat everyone the way you want to be treated. greet people, say please, thank you, excuse me, smile, help others out, have respect for elders, and more. my parents came from india and they taught us so much values and all added to that growing up it was friendly and respectful in the usa. we hardly heard foul and these negatitive things in the 80's and stuff. tv was good, i remember watching good programs that taught respect and kindness. then everything changed. now foul in vocabulary, bad behavior is acceptable, even little ones like 7 or 8 yr old curse and talk back to to anyone. people dont say thank you or please and stuff. when i talk to people close to me or my friends, i say we are so lucky to lived in those times and all. we lived our childhood and teenage yrs with fun, peace, and to the fullest. these kids and teenagers, and all now like pathik say miss out on heck of a lot of fun and meaning in life. clubs and bars, foul, and bad behavior took over. even family togetherness is not the same it used to be. people dont sit together to eat or plan outtings for talk and spend some quality time together. i feel sad when i see people missing out what i had and all. when i talk to little ones about my childhood, they get amazed when i tell them my family and i go boating, fishing, zoos, parks, fly kites, travel everywhere, pick fruits and vegetables at the farm and ride a pony and stuff. they tell me they wish to do that too. i just think our society is part of the whole of american society. we are involved in what's happening today and unfortunately some have died from drinking, drugs, and all. if they just lived a different way or made another choice, they would be living on earth. it's a hard complex problem that can be fixed by people just doing even the smallest things to help and be kind to others and such. we can reverse the problems. it's matter of using our talents and strength and thinking of others. we can not only shape our indian society but as well american society.

More people need to think of others and when they think like that they help out more...
« Last Edit: Jul 31st, 2004, 3:02pm by Vijay Mehta » User IP Logged

Ajay Delta Epsilon Psi
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xx Re: Wake up call from Reena Patel
« Reply #25 on: Jul 31st, 2004, 5:30pm »

I just watnted to comment on this subject a little bit. I know that people at parties can get a bit out of hand, but I don't agree with your statement that Delta is a 'problem'. It is comments like that give good organizations like us a bad name. Why wasn't ISA listed as a 'problem' as they also throw parties? D.E.Psi is critisized way too much for the sole fact that we throw parties. big deal. everyone throws parties, that doesn't mean that we contribute to any of the horrible behavior from some of our peers. I can honestly tell you that any girl in Austin can testify that I have never disrespected a single woman, mostly because I had two older sisters and always think about how I would feel if someone treated my sister's badly. So now, since I can honestly say that I've been nothing less than a complete gentleman with ladies, I can make my comments.
It is my belief, as it has been for a long time, that many girls, although probably not purposely, put themselves in situations that are difficult to deal with. For example, they will go out to 6th street with some guys, get trashed, flirt, and then expect to not be harrassed back (flirting is a type of harrassment). I think the wake up call needs to be for woman.
No one respects people that don't respect themselves, and thats the fact. So I believe that if woman respect themselves enough to not go out, get trashed on sixth street, and act a fool, guys will treat them with more respect. The same exact thing goes for guys (so don't trip off the double standard). If I went out, got trashed, and acted a fool, I would be dealt the same amount of disrespect from my peers as any lady.
Thats all. Just wanted to dispute Mr. Mehta's comments about Delta and state my opinion about the 'women' situation in Austin.
No disrespect was meant by this message, just commenting because Reena showed me the page. Peace all and be good.
PS.
END UP THURSDAY NIGHTS lol

Dear Ajay and DELTA guys

I never thought when we wrote about Delta or SASA that they had done anything wrong. They happened to be mentioned because in the given incidence the party was held by them. It would be wrong to presume that party scene is much different in other organizations. As a matter of fact Depsi has consistantly provided lot of community activities including my bone marrow drives time and time again,

The central issue are: -
1. Is threre a small minority of guys who feel that there is everything is up for grab at such parties?
2. If that is so, why is the majority look the other way?
3. Is that behavior consistant with our culture?
4. Should we discuss this issues publicly to increase awareness, create dialogue and come up with possible solutions?
5. When a guy and girl behave in a manner you describe, are the consequences much more severe for girls than guys?
6. Is there a way by which we can create a culture of respecting the right of a man or a woman to turn down invitation or advances?
7. If the girl happens to be white would our guys feel free to grab them as much as they would if the girl was a Desi?

Once again, I like to apologize if I gave anyone an impression that Depsi has done anything wrong. But I do want all Depsi guys to help me change the culture - just like I need your help in bone marrow drives!

Peace

- Vijay Uncle


From another member of Delta:
"Delta and OCP are some other groups. I like to point out that even if these names are the only one mentioned , the problem is not limited to these groups but it is universal in nearly most of the things youth do these days."

--------------------

Before I say anything, I mean no offense by this post, I simply want to make a point and a different point of view on the above claim. No offense intended.

Of everyone on the boards, I thought that you would be the last person to generalize and stereotype an entire organization as a problem. Like mentioned before, we throw parties, so what? If someone does something bad at a Delta party, it is not the fault of the person throwing the party. If someone throws parties, doesn't automatically deem them a problem point.

Now since you wanted to discuss Delta as a problem, why don't we look at where the money from these Delta parties go towards.

1) Project Come Together - hosted by Delta - One of the largest single day service events on UT Campus history - 1500 elementary school students who did well on their TAAS brought to UT campus for a single day festival with 40+ other organizations working under us to make the event a success

2) Sugar Free Bowl - Flag football tournament that donates $1000 toward JDRF, a junior diabetes foundation

3) One service project every month including, but not limited to, Habitat for Humanity, Any Baby Can, Babies with HIV, Captial Area Food Bank, Diabetes Awareness Week

Not to mention

- Best overall asian organization on campus 2000-Austin
- Delta President awarded best south asian leader on campus 2000, and nominated again in 2002 - Austin
- Awarded best fraternity in MGC - College Station
- Outstanding Service Organization Award - Houston

Just to mention a few accomplishments. You said Delta was a 'problem' but you didn't justify your false claim. Usually, in order to make a point, one must back up all claims with arguments based on evidence. So please tell me again how an organization like ours is such a problem in the South Asian community.

400 Brothers
7 Chapters
3 Pillars
1 Brotherhood
Delta Epsilon Psi




All Delta Brothers,

Congratulations to Delta, it is commendable that you are able to channel all the energy to worthy causes. Once again, when I wrote "the problem is not limited to these groups but it is universal in nearly most of the things youth do these days."
I meant problem of male behavior towards females and that too by a small minority. This in no way indicated any thing bad about SASA or Delta. I have personally been to Four SASA and have had long discussion with the leaders, and I know if there was any way they could prevent such behavior they would.

Same way Delta is NOT a problem at all but Delta could be a solution if they come up with a way to curb this incidences.

I would like to solicit the help of 400 brothers, 7 Chapters, 3 Pillars and One Big Brotherhood - Delta, in joining me to address the issues in the prvious post to Ajay. Please join me in making our society even better.

As I have detailed in my reply no 13 (July 30 5.37 PM)I think the solution lies in multiple areas and I am trying to work at every angle. If there are more please let me know. Thank your
- Vijay Uncle
« Last Edit: Oct 7th, 2010, 7:33pm by Vijay Mehta » User IP Logged

Dimple
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xx Re: Wake up call from Reena Patel
« Reply #26 on: Jul 31st, 2004, 7:40pm »

I am a 16 year old girl from Maryland. I know some girls will get all mad and that from what I got to say. I want to comment on the men's response. I understand completely your view how "some" girls but themselves in these positions.
Yeah, it's not good when you go flirting with guys, tag along them, and just go with the flow and when something happens. You blame guys for it. Come on, take some responsibilities for your actions. I see my age girls being so naive and drawing attention purposely and when the boys do something to you it's their fault completely.
Some of you girls say your all tough and can defend yourselves, but can't even do the simplest thing like if you see something bad or environment that is bad then why bother putting in yourself in that position. I know you can't avoid everything, but be responsible and smart on your decisions. If a guy take advantage of you complain and let your family know instead of hidding it. I know women want to be independent and be treated as equals, but in any situation whether you at a desi party or non desi environment or whereever, you need to keep the basics in mind about safety and think before doing something. I'm sorry for saying this but I see lots of naive girls, especially my age just doing . Not they doing that to desi guys. If a Black or White Guy if they hit on you, you would avoid the situation and be real alert but when it comes to the desi guys it's less or nothing. For all the girls like Reena, they are strong. 0k That's All


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Dimple
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xx Re: Wake up call from Reena Patel
« Reply #27 on: Jul 31st, 2004, 7:50pm »

These kind of things happen everywhere Texas, Cali, NY, everywhere.
A person can have a party in their home and all this would happen.
You can't bash one place as bad but the activity that is inappropriate you can say it's bad.
I don't think Dr. Mehta is stating "Delta" is bad, I guess he's using several examples of places of where everyone parties.
It's really nice to hear a guy's view on these issues.
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angel
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xx Re: Wake up call from Reena Patel
« Reply #28 on: Jul 31st, 2004, 8:32pm »

there are lots of girls that think a good # of them don't even know how to dress properly & act.
i am one of them.
many girls don't like how other girls dress in revealing clothes and flirting.
we say to one another they are more likely to get into trouble than us
many of them are bad influence to other girls to convert in all this and be like them.
i know not all of them tell them to be like them.
younger girls are copying what goes on today. you won't be surprised seeing a 13 or 14 old teenager showing her cleavage to guys on the net and when they go to places to flirt with guys
now they go get drinks being under age, wear clothes, showing way too much skin on the street, internet, school and other places they might go to
they go out with these guys that are strangers
which anything can happen
they date guys, when they are not allowed too
they wear clothes that their parents don't approve
some wear one thing when they are in the eyes of parents, then change and put all this makeup
they do all this hidden activities.
i am not labeling all girls or women are like this.
i'm not here to offend, but to say women should have integrity and grace. you also want to be a good example.
you know girls compare one another and want to be like everyone else
it's not good when they pick up this behavior and attitude from others or treat yourself like that.
and it's certainly doesn't give no right for men or boys to take advantage of that
and men or boys can be just as bad as girls. the people of the post spoke well of that.
we older girls need to set good examples for young ones, cause many are like from what i said above and they are even more vulnerable to violence and putting their life on line. they are young and still learning.
and that's dangerous and disturbing

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Samir
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xx Re: Wake up call from Reena Patel
« Reply #29 on: Jul 31st, 2004, 8:50pm »

"No one respects people that don't respect themselves, and thats the fact. So I believe that if woman respect themselves enough to not go out, get trashed on sixth street, and act a fool, guys will treat them with more respect. The same exact thing goes for guys (so don't trip off the double standard). If I went out, got trashed, and acted a fool, I would be dealt the same amount of disrespect from my peers as any lady. " Comment from one of the posts.


You're Right On ....

Samir

Thanks

Do you think if a girl goes to 6th street and gets trashed, loses fundamental right of refusal to dance with a guy or going out with a guy?

Do you think that will stand as an excuse in front of judge of jury?

If you there was a white or African American girl who goes to 6th street and gets trashed would a desi guy grab her with as much ease as if she was a Desi?

I am in no way defending our young women to get trashed, I have outlined my thoughts in reply # 13, but we do need to explore all the possible solutions

- Vijay Uncle




« Last Edit: Jul 31st, 2004, 9:44pm by Vijay Mehta » User IP Logged

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