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Manan
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xx Re: Wake up call from Reena Patel
« Reply #60 on: Aug 9th, 2004, 11:22pm »

I don't think it's a question of civility at OUR parties per se... Nonsense like this happens at clubs with all sorts of ethnic groups from all walks of life.

i tend to take a overly logical standpoint and would love to hear other viewpoints.. in the field of game theory, they have done research on the best way of preventing disruptive behavior (everything from bullying to destroying social pacts to cheating)... and the only way they have found to keep people in check is punishment of some sort. as inhumane/unladylike as it sounds .. yes, i believe if someone gets out of line, a little social embarassment could prevent a situation such as this from spiralling out of control..


is it possible to create a culture where you can have fun but not at the expense of others...

that's a tough question. it's been a while since i've seen the SASA scene.. the short answer is NO.. people flying in from different parts of the country, needed to make a bold impression extremely quickly, and the desire to party like mad, plus the party promoters that pack in people like sardines all converge to make potential social disaster in the works. as compared to other indian parties, SASA has more frivilious fights that break out, more freely flowing alcohol, and other more people behaving like monkeys (they tore up a hotel in downtown SF). it's not wrong, but you have to be aware of the scene and turn your senstivity threshold up or down depending on the venue. if i was a girl and my friends were going to such a party.. i would make sure that I'm around or near people that I trust and be more observant to my surrounds...

however, given that i'm not a girl.. a girl's rebuttal/agreement to my statements would add to the feasiblity/realism..

i doubt the guy thinks it's funny. his advances were rejected and he's had his ego flattened... and now he's the topic of a fairly lengthy discussion..

-my two cents
Manan
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HarbeerSandhu
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xx Re: Wake up call from Reena Patel
« Reply #61 on: Sep 12th, 2004, 4:48pm »

For all the people who yearn for the "good old days," I don't think this is anything new, and I don't think this isolated to ABCDs. Go to India some time, and you'll see such behavior on the streets in broad daylight. Some jerk once grabbed my sister's breast as he rode by on his bicycle, going in the opposite direction--on Mall Road in Amritsar.

At techno parties in Goa, the westerners tend to stay away from the parties until about 4 a.m. because they expect the aggressive, disrespectful locals to be gone by then.

I think we need to recognize that we come from a culture that views women as inferior to men--look at the practices of female infanticide, female abortions, and sati! Read Manu, read the Koran--you can't deny the misogyny. And to any Sikh who's about to give me, "So kion manda aakhiyay, jit jamay rajan," (Why do you speak ill of women, when they give birth to kings.)--notice that when Guru Nanak speaks out in favor of women, he's still ascribing their "greatness" to the fact that they give birth to great men.

I don't know much about Parsis, but I give props to Jains and Buddhists and B'hais.

And to the posters who wrote in favor slapping these pigs to defuse the situation--I could see that escalating the conflict, too. The guy and his friends might even pick up a grudge and decide to get their idea of revenge at a later date.

I have to disagree the person who referred to game theory and said that "punishment is the only solution." You might punish one guy, and he may change his behavior for the time, but this is an general problem that requires a general solution. EDUCATION, through open discussion and debate would provide a much better solution, I think, but THIS MUST BE ORGANIZED BY THE LADIES. It can't come from guys or elders. I mean, if guys want to get together and discuss their own sexist tendencies and the sexism that pervades our culture, I don't discourage that, but I would love to see my sisters organize themselves and show us men how we can improve ourselves.

To the people who say this happens everywhere, at all clubs--check out your local underground scene. There ARE places where people get together to dance, have fun, and even consensually indulge their sensuality in an atmosphere of mutual respect. (At the Burning Man festival--a week-long art event/party in the Nevada desert--some people even walk around butt-naked, and people are, for the most part, respectful of each other. I say "for the most part" because there are bound to be a few jerks in a crowd of 35,000.)

I've criticized the Indian culture for being sexist, so now I'll criticize mainstream American culture for being materialistic. Yes, the big nightclubs are corny meatmarkets where sexuality is packaged as a shallow commodity.

Why pay high cover prices so you can buy overpriced drinks and get trampled on the dancefloor by people who are too scared to dance or speak to anybody until they've had 18 drinks? And the superficial people at those places don't even have a lick of individuality--they're all done up in sweatshop produced Banana Republic or mall bought "thug" gear. (And I can't believe that some of you are impressed by the gas guzzlers bought for these clowns by mommy and daddy.)

Why not organize your own party instead? Rent a space, call up your dj pals, make your own flyers (on a copy machine--not the $5000 glossy kind of flyers that boast images of impossibly thin and curvaceous anorexics.)


Call your party "Respect" and promote it with an image of folded hands, or call it "Goddess" and have a night of all female djs. You want to see it happen? DO IT YOURSELF!

And hold a discussion on sexism before the music starts. Does that sound wierd to you? What if I told you that the Yoga/Tai-Chi Collective at Cell Space in San Francisco actually leads people in yoga and tai chi for a full hour before their parties start--and THEIR PARTIES ROCK!

I met Vijay Uncle on Friendster, so I'm going to plug a pretty cool profile here: http://www.friendster.com/user.php?uid=1936046

If you think I'm some kind of freakish prude, know that I've been to parties from Trivandrum to McLeod Ganj, I've lived and partied hardy in New York and San Francisco, and I welcomed the new millenium at a party in the Mexican state of Oaxaca on a remote beach that was a 45 minute bus ride from the nearest telephone.

RESPECT!

Thank you very much Harbeer. I think you definitely have some wonderful suggestions. I am so happy I joined friendster about six months ago. Now I have met more than 625 people and yes, I had to open another page to accomodate more friends! smiley - Vijay Uncle.
« Last Edit: Sep 13th, 2004, 12:43pm by HarbeerSandhu » User IP Logged

HarbeerSandhu
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xx SMASH THE PATRIARCHY! (And capitalism!)
« Reply #62 on: Sep 12th, 2004, 9:55pm »

Thank you, Vijay Uncle, but I don't want to take credit for all those ideas.

My friend Susan organizes an annual event in San Francisco called "Women's Voices Rise Up!" It's a night of performances by female singers, musicians and poets, and 100% of the proceeds--from ticket sales, t-shirts, and a good old-fashioned donation jar--go to women's community groups. (The first year Susan did this, all the proceeds went to the Revolutionary Association of the Women of Afghanistan, but I think she's spreading it out among more groups nowadays.)

And I actually have been to parties that were promoted by women and featured only female djs.

I don't think I emphasized my point enough that the type of events Ms. Patel discussed promote cheap sexuality before they even start--on their flyers. Guys go to these parties anticipating that they'll be going home with the girl on the flyer.

Nightclubs and raves are big business, and the promoters know that sex sells. Marketer prey on people's insecurity and create a "need" which they turn around and exploit for profit. Take money out of the equation, and it starts to be about community, about cooperation rather than competition.

I'm about to go a little off-topic, but I think it's all connected--one thing that nobody has brought up in this discussion so far is the high incidence of male-on-male violence at these events, which is just another expression of "machismo."

I probably devoting way more attention to this analysis than it warrants. I'm sorry if I offended anybody, but I stand by what I wrote.
« Last Edit: Sep 12th, 2004, 11:49pm by HarbeerSandhu » User IP Logged

guest
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xx Re: Wake up call from Reena Patel
« Reply #63 on: Oct 19th, 2004, 9:10pm »

I have to say this is honestly one of the best forums Iíve read. Props to Reena for
getting this issue out in the open!! I've attended the past two Sasas, and after last year's
"grope fest" I refuse to return. The first year I attended wasn't quite as bad as last year. I
felt like I was the only one feeling so negative towards the conference. I have a bone to pick with some of the forum participants here, a girl shouldn't have to face harassment and battery just because of what she wears and Indian women are not weak!!! I do agree that girls should also carry themselves in a respectable manner (i.e. not getting soo toasted that your blindly staggering about in an entire cesspool of horn balls) Make sure you always go out with friends you can really count on and trust as well.
I remember one occasion while I was a freshman, me and the same group of ppl I always went out with decided to pre-party at my apt. I honestly had just one drink that night, but for some odd reason something wasn't right. I figured I would just shake it off at the club. We went out clubbing, and then my friend decided to throw an afterparty at his house. It never dawned on me that somebody might've put something in my drink at my own apt..or even water at the club. I had a guy I thought was my friend taking care of me. The last
thing I remember before passing out for 4 hours straight was having water poured down my throat, in an attempt to supposedly sober me up. I woke up later in my friend's room, when I heard him yelling at the guys to get out. I opened my eyes to see about ten guys in the room all looking at me. I'm pretty sure nothing happened at that point, I was pretty confused when I woke up at that point and still groggy. I drank some more water that was left by the bed, and passed out yet again. This time I was awoken in the dark with some guy trying to climb into the bed..I kicked, screamed and yelled but the music was soo loud outside, nobody heard. The coward then crawled out of the room when I was completely paralyzed with
fear.
It honestly sickens me to my stomach every time I think about that encounter. I've been through alot these past three years, I really wish somebody would have told me how guys can be in college. I figured I was safe, thinking just because these guys are Indian, they wouldn't do anything to harm me. I quickly learned (that being my 2nd week in college) that I really need to hold my own and not be so naive. After doing a complete turn around on myself, I often was called a prude. Even when I cut back on my drinking and covered up more, I'd still get harassed. A few lame guys here started making up stories, saying
they had hooked up with me and some other innocent girls. Guys that I hadn't even said a simple hello to! At first I sat back and just tried to ignore it, but theres only so much bull$**t a girl should have to put up with. I eventually got back at these guys and called them out at social events....screaming at the top of my lungs.
continued..
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guest
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xx Re: Wake up call from Reena Patel
« Reply #64 on: Oct 19th, 2004, 9:11pm »

I decided to share these stories to reiterate my point that its not usually the girl's fault when she's harassed. Even though these experiences have woken me up to the real world, it does suck that I still had to go through all of that. I've come to a conclusion about why some Indian guys are the way they are....Its all in the way they were raised. Indian guys are usually spoiled by their parents and never taught that they should respect a woman. I honestly have to say I have yet to be harassed or groped by a guy of another race. I get hit on alot by guys of different races, but they do it in a much classier way. They dont react to a no thank you I have a boyfriend, by pulling strings on my shirt, pushing me, or cussing me out (all of which happened at sasa 2004) This isn't an excuse for guys to behave like moronic baboons, by any means at all! We're all going to have to make a conscious effort to change the way things are going. Girls: SPEAK OUT! MAKE A SCENE! CALL THE COPS!! dont worry about anyone but yourself when you're harassed. Its better to be
called a b**** by some jerk, rather than being a rape victim. Hold your head up and be strong!!
Guys: Always treat a woman the way you would want your mother, sister, and daughter to be treated. If you already fall into that category, make sure your friends do
too, dont be a bystander. To the promotors of parties and sasa, this has always pissed me off about Indian parties...I see waay too many 16 year olds at these places. I think you guys should make a better effort to stop under-aged people going to these events. Its just
adding more trouble and these little girls are growing up way too fast. One last thing, if there are any parents out there reading this, don't think its too late to have a talk with your kids about whats wrong and whats right. Let them know about the dangers out there, or they might find out on their own from first hand experience.
India may be still considered a third-world country, but we are still considered one of the most intelligent races out there. We should all act like civilized and humane people.
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anonymous0
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xx Re: Wake up call from Reena Patel
« Reply #65 on: Jun 1st, 2005, 3:01pm »

It's not that it's all guys fault or all girls fault...but rather the person's own actions towards people..
if u dont act violent or disrespectful to other races...what makes doing to ur own race an exception??
gyals wouldnt want a black, white or hispanic male to grope them, touch them, or anything...then why allow a desi male to do same actions of disrespect cause he's one of ur people?? for the guys, u wouldnt think of touching a non desi woman or disrespecting her cuz u know u'll deal with a violent or hostile situation....but why do u think that u wouldnt deal with that with a desi.....there are some desi gyals....who are like street smart and are like americans....they would sue your behind and but u in bars...

the problems is, alot of desi slide things for their own ppl, they let jealously happen or tolerate bad behavior...
u need to learn from the americans on the why they think that is You all deserve respect and if it isnt meant you will show up front of a judge

plain and simple....
u gyals and guys should keep that msg in ur head...
for the gyals....alot of u just bunch of air heads...u say u all tough and all but cant even stand on ur own two feet in these situations...a smart woman would say to a guy....i am going to report u...
a weak woman cuss get angry and let the dude walk away and do that same or worse actions again to u or other woman...
come desi girls be strong and smart
not air heads!!!!
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Megha
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xx Re: Wake up call from Reena Patel
« Reply #66 on: Jul 19th, 2005, 1:41pm »

I agree with the post that said physical appearance of women sells in clubs and of course boys expect to take to girl home or score on a girl. Face it, both girls and boys go to parties to have fun and attach with people!!!
It's also girls fault for not being strong enough, too much into fashion and boys. They try to hard to be like those wannabe's bollywood actresses or models. It's ridiculous to see them looking like a clown with all that make-up and all dressed up like they are Barbie dolls.
Boys know that majority of girls want some attention and they are weak. So that's why they get used by boys. Boys have many girl friends too. Girls are nasty as well that have many boys too!!!
Get a life you people!!!!
Be normal and follower your own rules to a better life. There is a reason why God says dont date or act proper in attitude and dressing!!!!
It's people like you that fall into the trap of being a statistic of bad youth.

Both majority of boys and girls are the Biggest Liars Going On These Days. They are two faced. I hope they get all used up and destruct. That's the only way they will change!!!

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n
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xx Re: Wake up call from Reena Patel
« Reply #67 on: Nov 27th, 2007, 7:53pm »


"is it fair to say that ok im going to drink, and im going to dress anyway i want (even though my mother may not approve), and im going to go to the clubs no matter what (even though i get "attacked" by guys) because that's what i want to do? Is it fair to tell a guy that "im not an object" and then wear clothes that makes it look like u are putting your body on display? does it make sense to put urself in a vulnerable situation (possibly by havin too much to drink and not having complete control.... o simply by putting urself by drunk guys that u know have no respect for u or ur body)? "



This qoute was made by Reena and another guy. I would like to make a comment.

I mean if that was the case why wont girls wear miniskirts at the Swaminrayan Temple or at job interview or something? Because when you wear clothes that degrade yourself people think you like to bring negative attention or that you are a bad person.
I personally I would careless if I wear sweats and all outside, but one thing is for sure I am covered and respect myself. That doesn't mean I dont wear nice feminine clothes I do but its modest and its something that doesnt show cleavage, alot of legs, and tummy and all. I wear what's modest. The truth is its not right that a guy trashes women and grabs her simply because she is wearing shorter clothes or something. But women need to understand, what you wear does bring attention and if you decide to wear stuff that shows alot of your skin, then do expect some guys to treat you badly. These days I feel women like to play victims and all and be less accountable for their actions. Personally if you know at this club guys are going to be rude and all than why bother going there. Dont put yourself in a bad environment if you cant deal with bad people. The worst is you getting raped, pregnant, or losing your self esteem or good name. That's the bottom line. I think this dressing habits have been so picked up by even younger girls. Now little 13 year olds want to dress like they are 21 and over. I think even today's fashion it seems everything has become shorter, tighter, and more revealing. Even for teens. Its not surprising that young girls even 11 want to dress to show skin.
Whatever examples older people set, the young follow.
Think about it.
Personally it you wear non designer and covered up clothes, people have respect for you regardless, But when you show too much skin, expect people to have their own jugdments about you.
I personally think those that wear these revealing and have to party, get drunk, get guys people are people that have low selfesteem and have deeper disturbing issues.


I just think today in 2007 its gone so bad for girls. I think women are being degraded and just seems that media, music, makeup, fashion and all are completely degrading women, using women's vulnerablities and brainwashing them for the sake of money.
This is why makeup and fashion industry are making billions because of women insecurities.
I think women gone backwards and allowed the world to degrade them. Whether its a women who shows so much skin, at a club and later having sex with her bf, or a women being forced into sex slavery I just think women have degraded more and more by men and society. I think instead of moving fowards towards eqaulity and justice we gone worse.

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mayur panchal
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xx i want info about new s.498 on women welfare
« Reply #68 on: Jan 20th, 2008, 11:15am »

Hello Sir,

I want know about the sec.498 of women welfare act, which is not helpul for those husband who are neglecting by todays women & because of that how she get more benefit from that. so plz give me some information about it.

Thanking you,
mayur panchal

Check out:
http://www.lightinlife.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=62&Itemid=90


Where any person is an accused for taking or abetting the taking of dowry or the demanding dowry, the onus of proving that he has not committed an offence shall be on him. (One of the principles of the Indian Criminal Law is that a person is innocent until proven guilty and the onus of proving the guilt is on the complainant / prosecutor. This onus has been shifted in certain specific offences such as Dowry, Rape, etc.). - Vijay Mehta
« Last Edit: Jan 20th, 2008, 2:22pm by Vijay Mehta » User IP Logged

Confused
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xx Gay Life Style - Prostitution
« Reply #69 on: Mar 14th, 2008, 12:07am »

I am not NRI , Doc, I came to your website to read about Dr Patel and hooked with your presentation style and logic. Otherwise I won't spend so much time on these NRI issues.

I think it is a pity that these late night parties, alcohol has become 'our' community issues, when these strike on the foundation of what constituted the 'community'.

Also I find some NRIs are convinced of their anger and moral right to bring openness on late night parties, creating and submitting to desires without a commitment...

There is a post on your website on a 'lesbian' who rejected and tastes and constraints of her family as seriously as she could have been, before blaming the family for her rejection. I followed the link and read about the 'orgasm' - the drink story, as if she found sex and its deviation in her medical studies , unlike the lesser mortals.

One issue is why prostitutes are considered anti-social, I mean why the Nywork governor, Bill Clinton were not supplied with prostitutes as an allowance ... with his housing etc. However since Americans consider it as a moral outrage, thankfully many NRI activists don't demand right of prostitution.

But this interest in lesbianism, analyzing late night parties instead of outright rejection in your website bit confuses me ...particularly when I read fine posts on contemporary issues in medicine and health care delivery.

Thanks for your posts on health care delivery.. I learned a lot on the issues of health care.

Have a good day.

I am not sure if I understand you correctly.

Lesbianism or Gay life style is something that exist in small percentage of people. They are wired differently. It is not ism. That is who you are. The issue we Desi face in this department is basically how to accept it.

Prostitution is a profession - legal in some places and illegal in others. NY Governor was guilty of being connected to a ring and transportation across the state line.

Late night parties and crude behavior of Desi youth is result of hormone overload on top of lack of inhibition due to late night environment with high alcohol level. The main problem here is Desi gals feel like they have to yield into this. - Vijay Mehta

















« Last Edit: Mar 14th, 2008, 01:45am by Vijay Mehta » User IP Logged

S
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xx Re: Gay Life Style - Prostitution
« Reply #70 on: Mar 14th, 2008, 12:16pm »

Dear Dr Mehta,

I find it is a very nice blog with with a personal touch, Thanks
for your effort in answering the posts.

..wired differently. It is not ism. That is who you are.

I was inclined towards the current in the wire...probably its synchronization or fluctuation and beyond - where the very myself was close to an ism, yes,no and other options...

<i>The main problem here is Desi gals feel like they have to yield into this.</i>

Now I got a passage for my young friends...

The Petals of a lotus are magnificent. Behold its wonder..it waits to open up in yet another bright morning. It was sleeping yesterday night when all the chatter was going on... but when the lotus wakes up to embrace
the sun, it finds no space lost, it has all the way until the horizon to look up and feel to...All that was in the night have receded...so this new space of the pleasant day has been perfectly fine too.

The love is not the desire... Gautama said- the absence of desire is happiness. The sages said calm and steady experience the pleasantness. Could a calm and visible morning be the one we could yield to.

Wishing all the best to the people here.

Thanks again for posting so much stuff on medical delivery in the blog.

Regards

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rj
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xx Re: Wake up call from Reena Patel
« Reply #71 on: Mar 28th, 2009, 4:42pm »

Shilesh Patel, 26, stabbed David Haynes in Wellingborough, Northamptonshire, after the two clashed in a nightclub.

Mr Haynes defended his cousin Shane McLeod, who was mocked by Patel for being deaf on 26 August 2006, jurors at Northampton Crown Court heard.

Patel, a university graduate of Winstanley Road, Wellingborough, must serve a minimum of 18 years in prison.

Passing sentence, Mr Justice McKay said: "You took the life of a young man of good character with his whole life before him on his 21st birthday'Pride dented'

The jury was unable to reach verdicts on murder charges in relation to Patel's co defendants Nimesh Patel, 24, and Sandeep Phull, 22.

They will discover whether they face a retrial on Tuesday.

All three defendants were cleared of conspiracy to cause GBH.

In a statement, Mr Haynes' family said it welcomed the verdict and sentence.


Shilesh Patel will serve at least 18 years in prison for murder

It said: "This verdict has hopefully shown that no matter what class or background you come from, carrying a knife is a stupid thing to do and could lead to serious consequences, not only for victims but for their family and friends and the wider community.

"We wish to stress that we would like the peace and calm to remain and ask people not to use David's death as an excuse for any more violence or reprisals."

Jurors heard how Mr Haynes was celebrating his birthday with Mr McLeod, 24, and other friends in the Bar Life nightclub in Wellingborough.

Mr Haynes confronted Shilesh Patel after the defendant became involved in pushing with his cousin in the nightclub, jurors heard.

"David Haynes told him 'If you have got trouble with that guy, you have got trouble with me'," Nicholas Dean, QC, prosecuting, said.

'Knife for protection'

The altercation ended with both parties shaking hands but, said Mr Dean, "the trivial incident was the spark to ignite events later."

Shilesh Patel returned to his home in Winstanley Road, Wellingborough, with his co-defendants where he armed himself with a kitchen knife then returned to Silver Street and stabbed Mr Haynes in the stomach, jurors heard.

Mr Haynes died at Kettering General Hospital 12 hours later from a single stab wound inflicted by Shilesh Patel, the court was told.

When questioned by police Shilesh Patel said the killing was an accident and that he was carrying a knife for protection, jurors were told.




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Guest
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xx Re: Wake up call from Reena Patel
« Reply #72 on: Jun 18th, 2009, 06:25am »

I agree with Mr. Mehta and Reena that guys should respect girls and should not force them for sex etc... There is no doubt about it..However I also dislike reena's comment that "I dress how I want when I go clubbing and I will tell you that the stuff I wear, my mother wouldnít necessarily agree to, but that doesnít mean Iím saying hey guys come screw me please. Just because a girl dresses one way doesnít mean that a guy can say ok well because you look
like the kind of girl that will put out, you have to be one.? "


Now if you are sati savitri and pretending to be a bitch, that's not going to work. If you are agreeing here that dress you are wearing your mother wouldnt agree to.. you are inviting this bad people towards you.

You mother knows that this kinda bad dresses invite bad persons. If you keep sweet (mithai) open, you are going to attract fly.. If you want to keep it safe, keep it refrigerated.


While clubbing is good, going there almost nude is not. SO BE CAREFUL. It's good to change the world but change must start with you equally.
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DR X
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xx Re: Wake up call from Reena Patel
« Reply #73 on: Aug 12th, 2009, 4:13pm »

I SIT MANDATORY FOR A GIRL TO GO THE PARTY AND NOT GET GROPEED,,, MOLESTED.. MY DEAR SATI SAVITRI SISTERS WHY NOT SPEND TIMW ITH YOUR OLD FATHER OR MOTHER RATHER BEING JUICED UP AND BALING ALL DESIS ARE BLA BLA BLA AND THE GORAS ARE NICE PEOPLE.... WHY NOT VOLUENTEER YOUR TIME FOR SOME OF TEH PEOPLE WHO ARE UNDER PRIVLIDGED OR START A NON PROFIT ORGANIZATION
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Shashi
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xx Re: Wake up call from Reena Patel
« Reply #74 on: Mar 1st, 2010, 09:02am »

While I have heard of things like what Reena mentions, I have never witnessed them. Perhaps this is because I attended a 6 year medical program followed by a surgical residency, which meant I spent most of my early 20's studying or working my butt off. I never went to any of the SASA or frat parties. By the time I started going to Indian parties, it was in my mid-twenties, and I went to professional society functions such as NetIP or AAPI. I also attended Telugu conferences such as TANA, but those were different, because youth came with their families, and the aunties and uncles were everywhere, keeping their watchful and judgemental eyes on the kids. There were definitely hook-ups and morally questionable activities occasionally occurring, but I witnessed no thuggery there. People were generally polished and polite.
So what I am saying is, not all youth have to be subjected to what Reena experienced. I never even saw any of it. We should carefully select our activities. If you go to a party that the "OCP's" are known to frequent, then don't be surprised to be accosted by them. If you stick with a more polished and professional crowd, you may be able to avoid these scenes, as I have. Do some research before you go.
I think most professional Indian men know how to keep their hands to themselves and respect a lady.
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