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Gentle Scholar
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xx Pickup "Artists"
« Thread started on: Aug 26th, 2009, 4:51pm »

Hello,

I have a question a little different than most on this website.

I am a single, never-married 41 y.o. male with a house and a nice job. Only problem is, I'm having trouble attracting women. So I am thinking about going to a seminar run by a dating coach. Yes, I'm thinking about paying someone to teach me to talk to women.

I would pay between $1,000 - $3,000 for a three day seminar with an "expert". One learns things like proper body language and "routines" to get the attention of women. In the evenings, students go to a local bar with the instructors to hone their skills.

On one hand, I don't want to become someone who objectifies women, just trying to conquer the "next" one. These classes concentrate on the "seduction" process rather than on relationship-building.

But on the other hand, I am quite shy, and even after trying social clubs (I've been to a NETIP conference) and online dating services, I haven't met anyone yet. (My goal is a long-term relationship, but a stumbling block I have is conveying my personality and getting others interested in me.)

The company offering this has been shown on the Dr. Phil show.

I have a feeling alot of people on this site will not approve of this, but I'm not sure. I am open to hearing everyone's opinion not only of dating coaches but of ideas on how to improve my attraction qualities.

Hi Gentle Scholar,

Well I would suggest for you to go ahead and attend the seminar and report back to us. The seminar may assist you in your inabilty to pick up women. Just remember that it is designed with mainstream American women. I find that Desi women are vastly different. And making the connection is the easy part - staying connected and take it to finish line is the difficult part.

Most of the western approach are focused in making connection (marketing) while the battle lies in making it work. Mere window dressing does not change the reality - so work from inside out.

Seems like you have made many efforts with no luck so far and it also seems that you are sincere in your desire to find someone, so three days and one to three thousand dollars is a small price to pay.

But before you start marketing your product you must make sure your product is the best it can be. So do a little introspection and fix what is fixable in you.

You might find some pointers from my presentations at http://vijayuncle.mypodcast.com

Good luck.

Vijay Uncle
« Last Edit: Aug 27th, 2009, 07:19am by Vijay Mehta » User IP Logged

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xx to Gentle Scholar
« Reply #1 on: Aug 27th, 2009, 07:20am »

Iknowhowitfeels postes this ...

Hi There,

I wanted to say, I read your message and I really commend you to share this obstacle that you are having with dating, with everyone here. i think it's great to share that because a lot of people probably go through what you are. I wanted to ask you ask you something that you need to think to yourself and answer. You dont need to answer me or anyone here. But you said that you are shy and have a hard time meeting women or finding the right one.

Ask yourself, is it the shyness that gets you not land you a woman or do you think it has to do with something else? The reason why I am saying, i used to be a very, very, very shy and quiet person when I was a teen, I would watch my friends make more friends and get guys. Even though I was not allowed to date nor wanted to, but I knew that my shyness will give me huge obstacles in education, interaction with people, career, marriage etc. I remember a school nun told me to take risks, be the person that you want to be in order to be a great wife and mother, and successful woman. she told me try things like student government, volunteering, activities, social events etc. I did do that, and years went by where I would take even great challenges and before you know it. I am one of the most talkative and opinionated, and open to ideas kinda person. I mean I am a person that is ready to take guys on dates like a ball game, museum, concert, or camping, etc. I never imagined I would transform, but I really took a lot of time and effort to practice the advice my teacher given to me. To become a better you as a women, future wife, mother, etc.

Maybe, you first need to break your shyness first before you try to attempt to get women. Maybe taking some activities non-dating like hobbies, going to seminars, camping, etc will get you to come out of your shell so to speak.

You know for marriage or dating you need to be the person you want to be before committing. I think what my nun teacher said was right, rather than expecting someone to change you, you change yourself first to break the barriers and to mold you to the better, confident, and more happier person. Even if you take this dating coaching for 3 days, do you think it would take away that shyness you have with women?? I mean my shyness with guys took some time before I felt comfortable. I started small by having guy friends, participating in ball games (It became my new hobby at that time and now lasting one) , going to internet chats, etc. Non-dating interactions with guys. That's the key thing, because if it was a dating thing then my shyness would prevented me from talking and getting to know guys as friends. So my non dating interactions with guys really helped me a lot. I got to listen to guys opinions, about their goals, interests, etc as friends and try out activities that they liked like sports. Now i am a typical sports fan that attends games, plays them etc.

Try some activities with women friends like boating, going to garden, outdoor stuff, to dance, volunteering etc. If you feel comfortable with women friends then you will pick up a lot of lessons of what women thinking are, to what they like, their personalities in generally, goals, etc. Understand women friends and you will be able to feel so comfortable talking to women that you date etc.

Though, it's your choice to take the 3 day course with a coach, but I don't believe 3 days will mold you in a week to pick up women. I think it will take many weeks to months to practice these techniques that i mentioned and what the coach tells you in order to shed off the shyness.

Well good luck to you. I hope my comment was helpful to you. I was just speaking from experience.
« Last Edit: Aug 27th, 2009, 07:21am by Vijay Mehta » User IP Logged

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xx Re: Pickup "Artists"
« Reply #2 on: Aug 27th, 2009, 5:46pm »

I'm basically a beginner when it comes to relationships. I've probably met 2 dozen women on internet dating sites (both match.com and shaadi.com), but I've never had a long-term relationship. Right now I'm starting basically at 0 social life. I only have one friend left in the area.

The last girl I met online was a girl from Bangalore studying the US for a PhD in nutrition. When I first met her over dinner, the conversation was slow. But then I took her to Philadelphia and had dessert, then we went to a nightclub and danced for a couple hours. I don't think she had been on too many dates before, and she had a great time.

But by the third date, she stopped asking me questions and trying to get to know me. This always happens. Where I'm hitting a wall is conveying my personality and passions I think.

As far as getting my "product" fit for marketing, I'm coming to terms with early-childhood sexual abuse, and after having worked many years in jobs below me, I've been an accountant now for 5 years and have the respect I deserve on the job.

As "Iknowwhatitfeelslike" suggests, I need to actually get a life that a woman wants to be a part of. (And have a social life where women are introduced to me.)

I should be going to parties, classes, dinners, plays etc.. In recent months, I have begun some new hobbies, like fishing and learning a new language; however, these are more solitary pursuits.

I know that hiring a dating coach is like a woman getting breast implants--it's only on the surface.
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xx Advice to Gentle Scholar
« Reply #3 on: Aug 27th, 2009, 9:05pm »

Posted by Iknowhowitfeels;

Msg to Gentle Scholar,

The dating coach may not help you much, but if you feel it's worth to seek advice and all then maybe you should go. I recommend trying what I have suggested to you in order to overcome your shyness. I know the suggestions I have made will take a lot of effort, investigating, and time in order to break the shyness and understand women and also to transform yourself. It took me many years to overcome my obstacles, but then again, I was a teen going through changes and later on going into my early 20's phase. I really focused on being myself and just becoming friends with guys. I would talk about anything to them from politics, sports, weather, activities, music, to anything that we liked talking about. The funny part was that I was trying to understand guys, while my guy friends would ask me all sorts of questions on how to get a woman. smiley One of the key things is being open minded, staying true to yourself, and staying positive. Guys liked that from me so I had easy conversation with them. They felt so comfortable with me that they would tell me about their past relationship like ex's etc, who the didn't like, their fears, goals, and anything in their mind.

I think Gentle Scholar, participating in activities where women are found and being open minded to try new things and such should be your focus. Don't look at women that you talk to as women you can date, rather focus on making friends first. Get to know many women as friends and make new women friends. It can be from your best friend's single sister who is in her 30's or something. You know what I mean, try to find women friends through your friends circle and such.
Try that and see how it goes. I think cultural functions, temple, social indian gatherings, social clubs, seminars, plays, weddings, dance clubs, etc are great ways to meet people. If you want a classy women know that these people who tend to attend events like temple, indian social events etc. You need to be aware of the clubs and bars knowing their is too much drinking and maybe cheating going on along with some craziness with some women. You don't want to pick up a woman who is likely intoxicated and just flirting for fun. So keep mind of that.
I really think that you should attempt what I am suggesting. It's like weight lifting you try small weights and get toned, when that seems easy, you increase the weights to become more stronger in the arms.
Same thing, try small things like going to indian gathering, temple, etc.
Smile, greet women, and offer any assistance to a woman and talk to women with simple chats like Hi my name is ....what's your name.... Or offer her help like "Do you need any help with that" Or you can make a simple comment like "The weather seems nice today" Try simple talks to break the ice.

Have your business cards in your wallet too. You can give it to women friends or women you are interested in and write down your personal email and phone number on it too...and get theirs and after 2 days or so send an email like "Hi there, it was nice seeing you the other day at so-so wedding or that temple"

I think the more comfortable you are with women friends the more comfortable you will be dating women. You need to develop confidence and get rid of most of the shyness. That's why you have an obstacle of introducing yourself, because you lack that confidence in being yourself with women because when you look at women, you look it as a potential date kinda thing. You should try to change your psychology and behavior towards making women friends. Maybe that will make you more relaxed. Another thing, as a young woman I can tell you that every woman is different with their activities. You have to be open minded. Most women in my age are more towards shopping, vacationing, bars, clubbing, concerts, eating out at restaurants, beaches, chatting online, hanging out with friends, dancing, etc. If you are looking to marry a 30 or 40 something year old woman, keep in mind that she's not going to act like a 20 year old woman and her activities will probably be different and some more toned down like clubbing etc. Recognize which age women you prefer to date and think about where you can find these majority of these women?

I just think you need to focus on yourself on overcoming your shyness and then when you feel confident enough then start dating women. I think it would take a lot of effort on your part to transform yourself and it won't be easy, it will require you being uncomfortable in situation, taking risks, and challenging yourself, a lot of trial and error or practice. It will also take a lot of time. Whatever you do don't criticize yourself and don't set too high goals to picking women easily.
Just be Mr Down to Earth Guy and make women friends. Once, you get really comfortable with women friends then take it to the next level. Your job is to build confidence.

Start Small for 6 months, then medium 6 months, then you are ready to date. Give it a year to practice what I am telling you. Transformation will take time, hard work, patience, being in uncomfortable situations that you never done before etc, but it will be worth it. Good Luck and I hope you try my advice. It worked for me and that's why I am telling you.
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xx Re: Pickup "Artists"
« Reply #4 on: Aug 28th, 2009, 9:34pm »

Thank you for such a long, thought-out reply! Even though you have never met me, I feel you are interested.

I don't know which is tougher, coming to America with $20 in your pocket, overcoming the languarge barrier, completing school, and starting a business; or learning to talk to the opposite sex.

I agree with "Iknowhowitfeels" in that I should look to make friends with women, rather than viewing her right away as a potential mate. One of my "sticking points" is that if a girl is pretty, I will avoid her rather than face rejection; when actually I might have something in common with her. Over the years I've learned to "internalize" the rejection; that is, if someone didn't take an interest in me, I thought it was my failure, rather than maybe she's busy. Some guys are delusionally positive and I just was never like that.

Today I went to McDonald's for lunch, and the person taking my order was a young lady, maybe 18 or 19. She asked why I didn't order chicken, and I said I was vegetarian. We talked a little more, and I found it flattering that a young lady took an interest in me. It was totally unexpected.

My current project is to find an activity where I increase my chances of meeting women who qualify as friends/girlfriends. Yes, alot of classy women go to social functions and religious ceremonies. There are a lot of beautiful women at NETIP events, if you've been to one of them. But I feel a little old at those. And bars are too loud. Perhaps a bike riding club would be good for me, as I like to ride 10 or 12 miles a couple times a week. I would like a girl who would ride with me.

I love the idea of boating! Tomorrow I'm going out on a boat as a matter of fact...I'm going fishing. Anyway, enough mundaneness. I'm the only person on this website not talking about politics or culture, so I better get serious again.

I'll try to give you more reports as things happen...

PS__I like the business card idea...I have some fun little business cards I made up on my printer.
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xx Re: Pickup "Artists"
« Reply #5 on: Nov 5th, 2009, 5:43pm »

Last weekend I attended a "Pickup Artist" seminar, led by a Dating Coach.

I hope you don't find it indulgent, but I would like to share my experience.

It was held in a hotel room, and there was just one other student. He was also a pretty shy guy, pretty nice though. Like me, he lacks courage to go up to women he doesn't know and start a conversation.

The dating coach began by telling us about his dating history, and then started teaching the "system" his company has. Basically it's a timeline with 9 steps. He went over body language, and discussed some stories you could tell about yourself to make yourself attractive to women.

He was rather loud and cocky. And he was superficial. Nevertheless, in a social setting he was very friendly.

I learned a few things.

First of all, I learned not be "outcome dependent"; that is, not to rely on external validation from girls I don't know. This attitude helps me not to appear so desperate for validation.

I learned a little more about what I'm looking for in a girl. One of the phases in the timeline he teaches is called Qualification, during which you ask the girl questions to see if she's compatible for you.

I think infrared dating questions might work well in this phase.

I realize I have a LOT of work to do, if I want to find someone to marry.

Right now I have to hone my basic social skills. If I can at least begin conversations with women, then I can work up to making a long-lasting relationship.
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xx Posted by Iknowhowitfeels
« Reply #6 on: Nov 11th, 2009, 06:15am »

Congratulations for taking several steps in helping you to overcome your shyness with women. Going to outdoor events and other activities including seeking help from a coach are big steps towards the process. Dating coaches may appear superficial and their ideas or methods might seem "weird", but remember that these individuals are happy and a source of positive energy, which attracts people. People like friendly, confident, easy going, and positive people. No one is attracted to pessimistic individuals. I think what you done was a smart move seeking advice from a professional who knows how to attract women or a lot about people skills.


Yes, you are right that you shouldn't rely on women that you don't know well to overall judge you. There are many people today that go by physical appearances and certain categories to like money to define compatibility or attraction. It's very important to "KEEP IT REAL" of yourself and ask questions to women and see who you are compatible with and who you aren't. Don't waste time on women that you are not compatible with or don't seem interested in you. Try not to get discouraged and move on to another woman. The most important thing is to attain as many compatible women friends and not finding a life partner in one shot. Beware that there are women who have boyfriends or secretly seeing someone and try to distinguish the single ones and the ones attached. I would focus more on making as many friends with good women.


I still recommend going to conventions, activities, and other things that will make you more confident and expose you to women. The more you are in contact with the women the better it is for you. As I mentioned, take small steps like developing simple conversations, exchanging business cards, and such. You may want to try activities like ball room dancing or salsa or something that will help you to have fun and expose you to many types of women. (The day you get married, you can impress your wife with the dance moves) Whether you have a simple conversation with a woman from a museum gallery or group of women at an event, it will get you to understand the nature of women.


Just use all the skills you learned from the coach, meet women, try simple conversations, exchange business cards, go to many events and all that will not only make you come in contact with many woman, but also allow you to develop people skills. Yes, it will require a lot of work and many months, but you are heading to the right path. Keep It Up!
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xx Posted by Gentlescholar
« Reply #7 on: Nov 11th, 2009, 06:16am »

If a person were afraid of snakes and came to you for help, you wouldn't just dump him in a room full of pythons.

You would probably expose him slowly to snakes. Maybe show him a picture, then maybe a model, then let him handle a small, harmless snake.

The problem with your advice is that you are asking me to run before I can walk or even crawl.

I am starting to put myself in social situations more often. But approaching and starting a conversation with a stranger involves A LOT of social skills.

For one thing, often at social events I have anxiety even approaching people I don't know.

Occasionally I get the bravery to talk to a solitary girl. I could begin a conversation on a single topic. But rarely can I transition into a longer conversation.

I think this comes from the fact that my parents were both very reserved people, and I have trouble displaying emotion, and recognizing emotion in others.

As a result, I am not good at "small talk." Most people aren't good.

Last weekend I saw a little improvement. I approached about 5 or 6 groups of girls, and was able to hold a 5 minute conversation with 2 of them.

This was at a bar. I don't really like socializing around alcohol, because girls don't trust you, and they tend to lie. Furthermore, there is lots of competition in a bar.

I'm in grad school, so I practice socializing there. I might try talking to girls in a park, but it's getting cold around here (Pennsylvania.)

Most goals are very simple at this point. I'm not worried about making friends. At this point I'm just getting over "approach anxiety" and working on small talk.
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xx Posted by Iknowhowitfeels
« Reply #8 on: Nov 11th, 2009, 06:17am »

This site that has variety of information to overcome anxiety. You may want to look over. Although, you may disagree that it is not important to have women friends at the moment, but generally all people need healthy relationships like friends from both men and women. It allows people to have a healthy social life and good self esteem. I have noticed people who exclude themselves from people are more prone to depression, anxiety, self esteem issues, lack of confidence, and such.

Even though, you are more interested in just dealing with fist overcoming your anxiety, but realize that you may miss out on opportunities of developing healthy friendships with men and women. There are many people who are kind, understanding, respectful, patient, and all who you can benefit from. If you talk with women even for 5 minutes do greet them and converse again when seeing them again somewhere if they are friendly individuals. Your chances of overcoming anxiety is greater if you got good supportive friends. Taking baby steps is the right step, but don't completely restrict yourself of developing friendships because of you fearing you may be look down upon or made fun of.


You said you don't have many women friends because of fear that they may judge you or you get nervous and also because your parents and yourself are quiet people. There are some people who have hard time conversing with people or making friends because they either lack confidence, have poor people skills, too insecure about themselves, or other issues.
Ask the coach to review your personality and give additional feedback on your personality. Get the coach to evaluate you thoroughly and give feedback so it will be beneficial for you. There maybe overlooked areas like the way you think or something that impact your interaction with people.


There was one individual that I worked with that had social phobia and he lived in a major city. It was extremely difficult for him to live his daily life knowing he always saw people on the streets and in the city. Although, he couldn't escape the situation of people phobia, but today he is glad that he was put in the most uncomfortable situation (being in the city) and overcoming his fear. In this situation he had snakes and he had to deal with it. If he didn't he would have lost his job, ostracized himself from the community, developed depression and other illnesses. This individual had to be in the most fearful situation daily and he knew that in order to overcome his illness he must face his fear. For some people they don't have a choice, but you are fortunate that snakes aren't front of you at first try. I think it's very good you are making attempts and understand the areas you need help in. Just take advice from trustworthy people and gradually move towards each step of the ladder. Don't let your fear, anxiety, and such take over you. Good Luck and I hope you overcome your anxiety and find a wonderful woman in your life.




http://ezinearticles.com/?How-to-Overcome-Anxiety-Disorder---3-Tips-to-Overcome-Anxiety-Disorder&id=2525562
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xx Posted by Iknowhowitfeels
« Reply #9 on: Nov 11th, 2009, 06:18am »

Dear Friend,

I am not asking you to jump directly into the social scene. I have mentioned in the advice to take small steps. You misunderstood since I named all variety of activities or possible ways you can overcome shyness, you assume that it required making major steps. I am not asking you to make big steps, but rather small ones. I do not know you, therefore the advice I have given was for those who do not have extreme or medium anxiety. I do not know your mental state or anything about you personally.

I can say that I have helped individuals in worse situations like depression or suicide. I certainly did not ask people to take extreme measures to help them feel better, but rather the therapy lasted for years with taking baby steps and slowly upgrading to new challenges. Required a lot of spirtual, mental, and lifestyle changes in order to overcome their dark phases in life.

Your problem with anxiety is not really about women, but rather it seems your nature is reserved like you mentioned and you probably like that with both men and women. For women you have high anxiety, but I think generally you probably have an anxiety.

Your issue is not with making friends, but rather an anxiety issue. This anxiety issue causes you to have uneasy or shot talks with people. I think you may want someone to help you overcome anxiety in general. Based on what I read, it will take many months if not few years to overcome your obstacles. Like I have mentioned take small steps and move forward. But a word of advice to you. If you stay too comfort in small talks or small things for a long time then it will be harder to overcome your issues.

My friend, starting small steps is important, but what's even more challenging is taking additional steps to move forward is tougher. Don't get too comfortable and stay in small steps for a long time, if you want to move forward make sure you move up the ladder. It will make you feel uncomfortable, but that's how it will be if you are trying to overcome something.

I am not asking you to jump directly into big steps, but start small and slowly move up. I think you misunderstood things and it seems it will take few years to overcome your shyness and see big significant improvement with women. I am sure you will meet the goal. Again, I do not know you or anything therefore I am giving a general advice. You don't need to take my advice, but rather do what you feel is necessary to succeed. I wish you all the best. I guess I am no longer able to provide you the advice since it doesn't apply to you.
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